From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 08:42:03 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA18506 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:42:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id IAA02052 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:40:28 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id IAA02046 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:40:24 -0500 Received: (qmail 7124 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1998 13:39:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 4 Aug 1998 13:39:53 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA16793 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 06:39:40 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id GAA14988 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 06:43:18 -0700 Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 06:43:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199808041343.GAA14988@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: PNG Advocacy Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List "Jon A. Cruz" wrote: > I was thinking that it might be time to get PNG Now! going for the > various homepage providers, but I don't want to be duplicating any > effort. Sounds like a great idea, and judging by the lack of response on the list, I'm guessing there isn't any duplication involved. Go for it! -- Greg Roelofs newt@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~newt/ Newtware, PNG Group, Info-ZIP, Philips Multimedia Center, ... -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 08:52:38 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA18616 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:52:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id IAA02115 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:46:59 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id IAA02102; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:46:46 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id JAA11291; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:45:57 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980804134156.00f3c664@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 09:41:56 -0400 To: PNP List , png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: PNJ Draft 45, 19980803 Cc: poynton@poynton.com Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List FYI: This recent posting to c.g.a etc. is relevant to our discussion about Portable Network JPEG (PNJ) and also to our current work on a PNG 1.1 version of the PNG spec. "[]" marks my editing of the posting. Glenn Subject: Re: RGB to LAB conversion From: poynton@poynton.com (Charles Poynton) Date: 1998/08/03 Message-ID: Newsgroups: comp.graphics.algorithms,sci.engr.color,comp.graphics.apps.photoshop [...] The [PNG spec] states that > The JFIF standard specifies that images in that format should use linear > samples, but many JFIF images found on the Internet actually have a gamma > somewhere near 0.4 or 0.5. The JFIF 1.02 standard does not specify that linear intensity should be used. The language is ambiguous. The specification says this: The color space to be used is YCbCr as defined by CCIR 601 (256 levels). The RGB components calculated by linear conversion from YCbCr shall not be gamma corrected (gamma = 1.0). This is an overloaded and ambiguous sentence, and it should be clarified in the next revision. "YCbCr as defined by CCIR 601" can only mean that the R'G'B' signals have been gamma corrected prior to Y'CbCr encoding. "(256 levels)" means, unfortunately, that 256 levels are used for luma, not 219 as specified in Rec. 601: JFIF uses "full-range" coding. (Chroma in JFIF has 254 levels, that is, 128+-127.) The "RGB components" are "calculated by linear conversion," that is, a linear 3x3 matrix is used. But the underlying "RGB" are already nonlinear. This is a poorly worded suggestion that additional gamma correction shall not be applied. JFIF does not work on 8-bit linear components, because JPEG depends upon perceptual coding! Virtually all JFIF images on the net are based upon nonlinearly-coded R'G'B' primaries. There are basically two classes of JFIF images: JFIF images coded on a PC or a workstation have a nonlinear transfer function like that of Rec. 709 or sRGB. Those coded on a Mac, for desktop prepress, have a power function with an exponent of 1/1.8. Perhaps "image gamma values around 1.0" are found primarily due to poor understanding of nonlinear image coding. This poor understanding is encouraged by Timo [Autiokari]'s postings on the topic, and his web pages. The PNG "Gamma Tutorial" is quite clear on what works well and what doesn't. -- Charles Poynton [Mac Eudora/MIME/BinHex/uu] -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 09:05:17 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA18740 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:05:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA02373 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:05:05 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id JAA02368 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:05:02 -0500 Received: (qmail 8137 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1998 14:04:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 4 Aug 1998 14:04:30 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA21950 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 07:04:17 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id HAA15463 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 07:07:55 -0700 Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 07:07:55 -0700 Message-Id: <199808041407.HAA15463@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: VOTE on iCCP 19980729 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List YES iCCP ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png-group/documents/ iccp-proposal-19980729.txt Greg Roelofs I propose that iCCP be incorporated into the PNG core specification, itself currently proposed to be labelled "version 1.1". This message counts as the official Call For Votes, according to the proposed voting rules (unless someone else beat me to it). The two- week voting period begins now... Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 09:07:14 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA18750 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:07:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA02322 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:00:22 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id JAA02317 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:00:19 -0500 Received: (qmail 7918 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1998 13:59:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 4 Aug 1998 13:59:48 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA20806 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 06:59:35 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id HAA15379 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 07:03:13 -0700 Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 07:03:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199808041403.HAA15379@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: iCCP (was Re: com.sixlegs.image.png v0.7 available) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > > > Just for the record, sRGB is a registered chunk and iCCP is a proposed > > > chunk. Apps should not be writing iCCP chunks just yet, except for > > > testing purposes in files that won't be posted to the Net. > > Speaking of which, the two-week discussion period expired 5 days ago. > > Shall we get on with the voting period (assuming that's the next step)? > > I must admit, I'm fairly rusty on such things... > I have just posted a new version of the proposal (simply copied from > Adam's latest PNG-1.1 proposal). The changes are only editorial, so > I don't think this resets the discussion clock. ...which sidesteps the issue of getting on with the voting. That is the next step, right? So I'll fire up the 2-week voting clock by submitting my vote in just a moment. But first, a couple of editorial questions: > The file is ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png-group/documents > iccp-proposal-19980729.txt There should be commas after "nonconsecutive" and "noninitial." The ICC reference (color.org) was removed--is that because it already exists somewhere in the main spec (either 1.0 or 1.1-proposed)? Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 09:49:55 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA19078 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:49:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA02923 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:45:06 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA02918 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:45:02 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id KAA13483; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:44:16 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980804144014.00f4ea84@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 10:40:14 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: iCCP (was Re: com.sixlegs.image.png v0.7 available) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 07:03 AM 8/4/98 -0700, Greg wrote: > >[...] a couple of editorial questions: > >> The file is ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png-group/documents >> iccp-proposal-19980729.txt > >There should be commas after "nonconsecutive" and "noninitial." I didn't actually care for that sentence much... It's clear what it means only if you read the section on tEXt keywords, but people from the ICC community are probably going to jump right to the iCCP section and might be puzzled or bemused by it. > The >ICC reference (color.org) was removed--is that because it already exists >somewhere in the main spec (either 1.0 or 1.1-proposed)? It will appear in the references section, and there will be a link to the reference in the iCCP section. glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 09:51:19 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA19107 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:51:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA02963 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:49:08 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA02958 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:49:05 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id KAA13622; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:48:20 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980804144417.00f3d4d0@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 10:44:17 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: VOTE on iCCP 19980729 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List YES iCCP 19980729 ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png-group/documents/ iccp-proposal-19980729.txt Glenn Randers-Pehrson -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 11:10:26 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA19718 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:10:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA04305 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:07:17 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id LAA04295 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:07:10 -0500 Received: (qmail 13033 invoked from network); 4 Aug 1998 16:06:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 4 Aug 1998 16:06:38 -0000 Received: from ultraann (solicited-mailing.href.com [208.201.252.123]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA24474; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:06:24 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980804090734.03f92170@mail.sonic.net> X-Sender: ann@mail.sonic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 09:07:34 -0700 To: PNG List , png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu From: Ann Lynnworth Subject: Re: PNG Advocacy In-Reply-To: <199808041343.GAA14988@bolt.sonic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I would be very glad to help advocate for PNG. The obstacles that I see from my Windows-centric perspective are * browser support is inconsistent between Netscape and IE - NS works off MIME types and the IE off file extensions - and * web server support from Microsoft IIS is non-compliant, i.e. there is no real MIME support for PNG. While I have gotten around this on my servers by running O'Reilly's WebSite on an additional port, that's not a great answer, most importantly because a fair number of surfers can't get to http ports other than 80. Optional, would really help : animated PNGs. Having that feature would let everyone ditch GIF forever. Ann ann@href.com http://www.href.com At 06:43 AM 8/4/98 -0700, Greg Roelofs wrote: >"Jon A. Cruz" wrote: > >> I was thinking that it might be time to get PNG Now! going for the >> various homepage providers, but I don't want to be duplicating any >> effort. > >Sounds like a great idea, and judging by the lack of response on the >list, I'm guessing there isn't any duplication involved. Go for it! > >-- >Greg Roelofs newt@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~newt/ >Newtware, PNG Group, Info-ZIP, Philips Multimedia Center, ... > >-- >Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu > > -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 11:53:24 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA20007 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:53:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA04790 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:49:48 -0500 Received: from kobra.efd.lth.se (kobra.efd.lth.se [130.235.34.36]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id LAA04783 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:49:43 -0500 Received: from efd.lth.se (d89cb@batch-1.efd.lth.se [130.235.34.53]) by kobra.efd.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02920; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:48:35 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199808041648.SAA02920@kobra.efd.lth.se> To: PNG List cc: d89cb@efd.lth.se Subject: VOTE on iCCP 19980729 In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Aug 1998 07:07:55 PDT." <199808041407.HAA15463@bolt.sonic.net> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:48:31 +0200 From: Christian Brunschen Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List YES iCCP ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png-group/documents/ iccp-proposal-19980729.txt Christian Brunschen -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 13:05:31 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA20518 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:05:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id MAA05537 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:58:25 -0500 Received: from mail1.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.3.125]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id MAA05532 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:58:22 -0500 Received: by INET-IMC-01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:57:36 -0700 Message-ID: <71F299426E8CCF11B05600805F6809DF022AE316@CUP-01-MSG> From: John Bowler To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: VOTE on iCCP 19980729 Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:57:28 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List YES iCCP 19980729 ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png-group/documents/ iccp-proposal-19980729.txt John Bowler -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 13:34:29 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA20748 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:34:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA05943 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:31:35 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA05938 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:31:31 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id OAA22029; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:29:42 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980804182540.00f2f45c@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 14:25:40 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: PNG Advocacy Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 09:07 AM 8/4/98 -0700, you wrote: >Optional, would really help : animated PNGs. Having that feature would let >everyone ditch GIF forever. That and animated transparent JPEGS. MNG will do both. See ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/mng/documents/ That reminds me --- gotta update the MNG-status document --- done Look at MNG_status_19980804.html or .txt; then if you want some heavier reading, read the draft MNG spec. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 14:37:38 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA21287 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:37:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA07452 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:26:03 -0500 Received: from sophia.inria.fr (sophia.inria.fr [138.96.32.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA07447 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:25:59 -0500 Received: from w3.org by sophia.inria.fr (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA08170; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:24:26 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: sophia.inria.fr: Host max1-29.nice.iway.fr [194.98.49.93] claimed to be w3.org Message-ID: <35C7602B.B8D8A92F@w3.org> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 21:25:31 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu" Subject: VOTE on iCCP 19980729 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List YES iCCP ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png-group/documents/ iccp-proposal-19980729.txt Chris Lilley -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 18:26:07 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA23080 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:26:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA11242 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:24:14 -0500 Received: from u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.44.157]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA11236 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:24:06 -0500 Received: (from amc@localhost) by u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.3/8.8.2) id QAA02002; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199808042323.QAA02002@u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: iCCP From: amc@cs.berkeley.edu (Adam M. Costello) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List The iCCP proposal contains: The profile name can be any convenient name for referring to the profile, and is subject to the same restrictions as a tEXt keyword (printable Latin-1 characters and nonconsecutive noninitial nonfinal spaces). Glenn Randers-Pehrson says: > I didn't actually care for that sentence much... How about this: The profile name can be any convenient name for referring to the profile, and is subject to the same restrictions as a tEXt keyword: it must contain only printable Latin-1 [ISO-8859] characters (33-126 and 161-255) and spaces (32), but no leading, trailing, or consecutive spaces. AMC -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 18:26:07 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA23081 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:26:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA11252 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:24:36 -0500 Received: from cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz (ron.mac.co.nz [202.37.101.18]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA11247 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:24:33 -0500 Received: from turbopress.com (ppp186088.netaccess.co.nz [202.27.186.88]) by cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07322 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:24:16 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199808042324.LAA07322@cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz> Received: from peter by turbopress.com Wed, 05 Aug 98 11:25:27 +1200 From: "Peter Hyde" Organization: South Pacific Information Services Ltd To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:25:27 +13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: PNG Advocacy Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3.0.3.32.19980804090734.03f92170@mail.sonic.net> References: <199808041343.GAA14988@bolt.sonic.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Ann Lynnworth wrote: > The obstacles that > I see from my Windows-centric perspective are > > * browser support is inconsistent between Netscape and IE - NS works off > MIME types and the IE off file extensions - and > > * web server support from Microsoft IIS is non-compliant, i.e. there is no > real > MIME support for PNG. I'd just like to agree with Ann and emphasise that it is the intolerably slow/poor support from the "majors" which has held PNG up for so long. We released a humble offline browser with PNG support TWO YEARS ago. So why should it take NS and Microsoft so long to get their act together in this area? More importantly, what can be done to tidy the still- unsatisfactory situation up at this point? As professional Web site builders, we'd love to abandon GIFs altogether -- so we have: in favour of JPGs on all new sites. Of *course* we'd rather use PNG in many cases, but we can't do that if the visitors and site owners both have cause to complain that the server and/or browser combination with PNG just doesn't work. Frankly, we'd need to be sure 95% of the site visitors would see the graphics before we could use them with confidence. A tough call I know, but that's the reality as we see it. > Optional, would really help : animated PNGs. Having that feature would let > everyone ditch GIF forever. It would be the final nail, yes. An-GIFs have definitely put another obstacle in the way of wider PNG use. How can we help? cheers, peter ================================================== SPIS Ltd, Christchurch, New Zealand * TurboPress Print-to-Web automation http://www.TurboPress.com * Web design, automation and international hosting specialists * Authorised Support Centre for HREF Tools WebHub Find all the above and MORE at http://www.spis.co.nz -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 18:28:00 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA23098 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:27:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id SAA11278 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:27:57 -0500 Received: from u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.44.157]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id SAA11272 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:27:54 -0500 Received: (from amc@localhost) by u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.3/8.8.2) id QAA02054; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199808042327.QAA02054@u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: VOTE on iCCP 19980729 From: amc@cs.berkeley.edu (Adam M. Costello) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List YES iCCP 19980729 ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png-group/documents/ iccp_proposal_19980729.txt Adam M. Costello -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 21:24:34 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA23752 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:24:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id VAA13305 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:22:15 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id VAA13300 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:22:12 -0500 Received: (qmail 4987 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1998 02:21:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 5 Aug 1998 02:21:23 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA02610 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:21:09 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id TAA17767 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:24:50 -0700 Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:24:50 -0700 Message-Id: <199808050224.TAA17767@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: PNG Advocacy Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List >> * web server support from Microsoft IIS is non-compliant, i.e. there is no >> real MIME support for PNG. Lee Crocker indicated to me that he knew how to set that up (some registry hack); if you haven't done that, then maybe he can cough up the info for us. Of course, his MX stuff is screwed up right now, so he's not receiving list messages (as of this afternoon). > As professional Web site builders, we'd love to abandon GIFs > altogether -- so we have: in favour of JPGs on all new sites. Of > *course* we'd rather use PNG in many cases, but we can't do > that if the visitors and site owners both have cause to > complain that the server and/or browser combination with PNG > just doesn't work. Well, the server is up to the site owner, so they have a fairly obvious choice they can make: use a server that can be configured correctly, or don't. The client issue is something else, and that's where server logs can help (w.r.t. user agents/browsers and detecting the 95% threshold). And you can always do the OBJECT/IMG trick; it doesn't currently work in the intended way, but it's no worse than your current alternative. Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 21:43:05 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA23823 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:43:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id VAA13449 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:42:23 -0500 Received: from cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz (ron.mac.co.nz [202.37.101.18]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id VAA13443 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:42:19 -0500 Received: from turbopress.com (ppp186088.netaccess.co.nz [202.27.186.88]) by cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14475 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:42:01 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199808050242.OAA14475@cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz> Received: from peter by turbopress.com Wed, 05 Aug 98 14:43:13 +1200 From: "Peter Hyde" Organization: South Pacific Information Services Ltd To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:43:13 +13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: PNG Advocacy Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199808050224.TAA17767@bolt.sonic.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg wrote: > Well, the server is up to the site owner, so they have a fairly obvious > choice they can make: use a server that can be configured correctly, or > don't. True, but PNG support is just one of the issues which dictate the choice of a server to use. In reality, it is unlikely to be an overriding one. Therefore, obviously, it is desirable to at least "encourage" the more commonly available servers to provide good support. Or at least, in IIS's case, make the information about registry hack as readily available as possible. > can help (w.r.t. user agents/browsers and detecting the 95% threshold). Aye. We watch that carefully: we're a long way off yet, I feel. > And you can always do the OBJECT/IMG trick; it doesn't currently work in > the intended way, but it's no worse than your current alternative. I did read about that a while back (not on the list -- just joined), but have now forgotten the details. Is there a URL with a description please? cheers, peter ================================================== SPIS Ltd, Christchurch, New Zealand * TurboPress Print-to-Web automation http://www.TurboPress.com * Web design, automation and international hosting specialists * Authorised Support Centre for HREF Tools WebHub Find all the above and MORE at http://www.spis.co.nz -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 21:50:34 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA23846 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:50:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id VAA13504 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:50:27 -0500 Received: from m6.sprynet.com (m6.sprynet.com [165.121.2.89]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id VAA13499 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:50:24 -0500 Received: from stormyweather (97.white-plains-01.ny.dial-access.att.net [12.68.96.97]) by m6.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA20592 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199808050249.TAA20592@m6.sprynet.com> From: "Soren Andersen" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:49:33 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: PNG Advocacy Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199808042324.LAA07322@cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz> References: <3.0.3.32.19980804090734.03f92170@mail.sonic.net> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List On 5 Aug 98 at 11:25, in the matter of Re: PNG Advocacy, Peter Hyde wrote: > More importantly, what can be done to tidy the still- > unsatisfactory situation up at this point? What can be done by developers, is being done, I think. Use Netscape not IE if possible, promote Netscape, and hope that N5 is a mega-hit. > As professional Web site builders, we'd love to abandon GIFs > altogether -- so we have: in favour of JPGs on all new sites. Of > *course* we'd rather use PNG in many cases, but we can't do > that if the visitors and site owners both have cause to > complain that the server and/or browser combination with PNG > just doesn't work. Ahh, the server. Can't do much about the browsers, except to use (support use of) plugins -- the PNGLive plugin for instance which wasn't a bad effort. Main problem I have seen with PNG and ANY other alternative graphic file type: server doesn't know about it, doesn't return the correct HTTP RESPONSE HEADER, and so plugin won't invoke correctly!!! (The stupid browser thinks it is a file type "text/html" by default). > Frankly, we'd need to be sure 95% of the site visitors would > see the graphics before we could use them with confidence. A > tough call I know, but that's the reality as we see it. > How can we help? Contact you Web Host admin and/or "Customer Support" personnel (I use this term VERY advisedly based on my bad experiences so far) and sternly request (yes, start by being very polite and of course remain that way for as long as possible ... ) that they add to mime.types the entry for PNG: type extentions ----- ------------- image/png exts=png image/x-png exts=png I just went shopping for a new Web Host and didn't contract with one until he had edited his mime.types and then emailed me a text copy of his mime.types file! I had another prospective Host do this too. Write to these guys and start making sound about how you won't become clients of Hosts that don't support PNG by taking care of this very simple thing. Is it a cure-all? No. Just something you can do. soren andersen PNG Advocate Strongly Opinionated Person jabPH [just another baby Perl Hacker] P.S. SpryNet div of CompuServe (prisoner of AOL) afaik does NOT send the correct http response for PNG on their Our World server! Scandalous! C-Serve promised to support PNG from the outset! -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 22:13:10 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA24000 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:13:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id WAA13625 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:12:55 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id WAA13620 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:12:52 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id XAA10597; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:12:02 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980805030759.00f2b4d8@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 23:07:59 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: iCCP Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 04:23 PM 8/4/98 -0700, you wrote: >The iCCP proposal contains: > > The profile name can be any convenient name for referring to the > profile, and is subject to the same restrictions as a tEXt keyword > (printable Latin-1 characters and nonconsecutive noninitial nonfinal > spaces). > >Glenn Randers-Pehrson says: > >> I didn't actually care for that sentence much... > >How about this: > > The profile name can be any convenient name for referring to the > profile, and is subject to the same restrictions as a tEXt keyword: > it must contain only printable Latin-1 [ISO-8859] characters > (33-126 and 161-255) and spaces (32), but no leading, trailing, or > consecutive spaces. > Ahhh. Very good. That is an editorial change that doesn't affect the voting clock. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Tue Aug 4 23:28:48 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA24276 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:28:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id XAA14266 for png-list-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:27:51 -0500 Received: from m6.sprynet.com (m6.sprynet.com [165.121.1.89]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id XAA14261 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:27:47 -0500 Received: from stormyweather (82.white-plains-01.ny.dial-access.att.net [12.68.96.82]) by m6.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA16454 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199808050426.VAA16454@m6.sprynet.com> From: "Soren Andersen" To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 00:26:46 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: PNG Advocacy Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199808042324.LAA07322@cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz> References: <3.0.3.32.19980804090734.03f92170@mail.sonic.net> Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Peter & All, Per my previous reply -- just felt that I had laid an unsubstantiated charge on SpryNet -- so here's the proof: Connecting to home.sprynet.com port 80 Requesting http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/sorentin/images/ToluFla00.256.png HTTP/1.0 200 OK Server: Spry-SafetyWEB-Server-NT/1.2a Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 04:20:09 GMT Content-Type: application/octet-stream Content-Length: 15555 "application/octet-stream". Humph. And it's not even IIS they are running. Sheer laziness or incompetence, I'd say. soren andersen -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 01:49:36 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA24890 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:49:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id BAA15490 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:47:42 -0500 Received: from cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz (ron.mac.co.nz [202.37.101.18]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id BAA15485 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:47:39 -0500 Received: from turbopress.com (ppp186088.netaccess.co.nz [202.27.186.88]) by cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22599 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:47:16 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199808050647.SAA22599@cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz> Received: from peter by turbopress.com Wed, 05 Aug 98 18:48:27 +1200 From: "Peter Hyde" Organization: South Pacific Information Services Ltd To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:48:26 +13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: PNG Advocacy Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199808050249.TAA20592@m6.sprynet.com> References: <199808042324.LAA07322@cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Soren wrote: > What can be done by developers, is being done, I think. Use Netscape not > IE if possible, promote Netscape, and hope that N5 is a mega-hit. Aye, wait and push, in other words. Easy enough to use the right browser and plug-ins ourselves, it's the random users visiting our sites that I worry about. > request (yes, start by being very polite and of course remain that way for > as long as possible ... ) that they add to mime.types the entry for PNG: We run our own servers, but IIS is apparently not easy to tweak in this area (it's nuts, it should be). However, as soon as a way is discovered/published, It Shall Be Done . > that don't support PNG by taking care of this very simple thing. Is it a > cure-all? No. Just something you can do. As far as it goes, worth doing. cheers, peter ================================================== SPIS Ltd, Christchurch, New Zealand * TurboPress Print-to-Web automation http://www.TurboPress.com * Web design, automation and international hosting specialists * Authorised Support Centre for HREF Tools WebHub Find all the above and MORE at http://www.spis.co.nz -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 04:35:05 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id EAA25701 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 04:35:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id EAA16478 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 04:34:06 -0500 Received: from mercury.ukc.ac.uk (mercury.ukc.ac.uk [129.12.21.10]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id EAA16473 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 04:34:03 -0500 Received: from elm.ukc.ac.uk ([129.12.3.225]) by mercury.ukc.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu id 0z3zwX-0002fb-00; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:33:13 +0100 Received: from localhost by elm.ukc.ac.uk (SMI-8.6/UKC-2.14) id KAA27983; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:33:11 +0100 To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu X-URI: http://www.cs.ukc.ac.uk/people/staff/djb1/ Subject: VOTE on iCCP 19980729 Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:33:11 +0100 Message-ID: <27980.902309591@elm.ukc.ac.uk> From: Dave Beckett Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List YES iCCP 19980729 ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png-group/documents/ iccp-proposal-19980729.txt Dave Beckett Dave -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 07:35:12 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA26073 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:35:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id HAA17554 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:29:39 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id HAA17549 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:29:36 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id IAA21804; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:28:45 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980805122442.00f3e480@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 08:24:42 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Serving PNGs [was PNG Advocacy] Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 12:26 AM 8/5/98 +0000, Soren wrote: >Peter & All, > > Per my previous reply -- just felt that I had laid an unsubstantiated >charge on SpryNet -- so here's the proof: > >Connecting to home.sprynet.com port 80 >Requesting http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/sorentin/images/ToluFla00.256.png I launched NC4.0.4 by clicking on the link and the result was a download of ToluFla00_256.exe (the file contains a valid PNG and nothing else). Interesting what two confused applications can come up with when they get their heads together. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 07:42:24 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA26095 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:42:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id HAA17613 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:42:22 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id HAA17608 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:42:19 -0500 Received: (qmail 16267 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1998 12:41:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 5 Aug 1998 12:41:44 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA25419 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:41:29 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id FAA01240 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:45:07 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:45:07 -0700 Message-Id: <199808051245.FAA01240@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: iCCP Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List > it must contain only printable Latin-1 [ISO-8859] characters I believe that should be ISO-8859-1, right? Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 07:51:12 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA26129 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:51:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id HAA17659 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:50:48 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id HAA17654 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:50:45 -0500 Received: (qmail 16333 invoked from network); 5 Aug 1998 12:50:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 5 Aug 1998 12:50:10 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA26900 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:49:56 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id FAA01333 for png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:53:39 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 05:53:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199808051253.FAA01333@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: PNG Advocacy Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Peter, >> Well, the server is up to the site owner, so they have a fairly obvious >> choice they can make: use a server that can be configured correctly, or >> don't. > True, but PNG support is just one of the issues which dictate > the choice of a server to use. In reality, it is unlikely to be an > overriding one. Well, I didn't say it was necessarily a practical choice. :-) But I will note that Apache is the most popular server in the world for a reason, and it's not just the price. >> And you can always do the OBJECT/IMG trick; it doesn't currently work in >> the intended way, but it's no worse than your current alternative. > I did read about that a while back (not on the list -- just > joined), but have now forgotten the details. Is there a URL with > a description please? http://www.cdrom.com/pub/png/pngs.html Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 08:14:49 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA26269 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:14:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id IAA17861 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:14:31 -0500 Received: from sophia.inria.fr (sophia.inria.fr [138.96.32.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id IAA17856 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:14:24 -0500 Received: from w3.org by sophia.inria.fr (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01909; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:13:31 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: sophia.inria.fr: Host max1-03.nice.iway.fr [194.98.49.67] claimed to be w3.org Message-ID: <35C85ABD.B64F4EE6@w3.org> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 15:14:37 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Serving PNGs [was PNG Advocacy] References: <1.5.4.32.19980805122442.00f3e480@netgsi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote: > I launched NC4.0.4 by clicking on the link and the result was a download > of ToluFla00_256.exe (the file contains a valid PNG and nothing else). > Interesting what two confused applications can come up with when they get > their heads together. The browser did exactly the correct thing when faced with data labelled application/octet-stream. That MIME type guarantees that the data consists of zeros and ones, but says nothing about the proportions of each ;-) -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 08:17:57 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA26280 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:17:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id IAA17871 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:14:39 -0500 Received: from sophia.inria.fr (sophia.inria.fr [138.96.32.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id IAA17866 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:14:36 -0500 Received: from w3.org by sophia.inria.fr (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01942; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:13:40 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: sophia.inria.fr: Host max1-03.nice.iway.fr [194.98.49.67] claimed to be w3.org Message-ID: <35C844A2.1471AF0A@w3.org> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 13:40:18 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: PNG Advocacy References: <199808042324.LAA07322@cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz> <199808050647.SAA22599@cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Peter Hyde wrote: > > Soren wrote: > > What can be done by developers, is being done, I think. Use Netscape not > > IE if possible, promote Netscape, and hope that N5 is a mega-hit. Both IE 4 .0 (and up) and NS 4.04 (and up) support PNG natively, without plug-ins. There were pretty much the last browsers to do so - all the smaller companies and smaller platforms seemed to have PNG-enabled browsers in 1995 or 1996. > Aye, wait and push, in other words. Easy enough to use the > right browser and plug-ins ourselves, If you are still using plugins, its probably time to consider upgrading to a later release. > it's the random users > visiting our sites that I worry about. Content negotiation. Give the PNG to the folks that can handle it, give GIF to the rest. Fairly simple to arrange, the W3C site has been doing it for years. The market-leading server, Apache, can do this (amongst others). -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 08:23:30 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA26310 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:23:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id IAA17932 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:18:20 -0500 Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id IAA17927 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:18:17 -0500 Received: from boi-itex02.boi.hp.com (exchange.boi.hp.com [15.98.137.131]) by palrel1.hp.com (8.8.6/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id GAA22603 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 06:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by exchange.boi.hp.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:21:07 -0600 Message-ID: <212BCC3857C6D111930A0800099B19B1ADE956@exchange.boi.hp.com> From: "Stokes, Michael" To: "'PNG List'" Subject: RE: VOTE on iCCP 19980729 Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:21:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List YES iCCP 19980729 ftp://swrinde.nde.swri.edu/pub/png-group/documents/ iccp-proposal-19980729.txt Michael Stokes Michael -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 08:43:09 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA26512 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:43:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id IAA18014 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:34:55 -0500 Received: from sophia.inria.fr (sophia.inria.fr [138.96.32.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id IAA18008 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:34:52 -0500 Received: from w3.org by sophia.inria.fr (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02534; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:33:58 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: sophia.inria.fr: Host max1-03.nice.iway.fr [194.98.49.67] claimed to be w3.org Message-ID: <35C85F87.3EBAF6C3@w3.org> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 15:35:03 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: iCCP References: <199808051245.FAA01240@bolt.sonic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg Roelofs wrote: > > > it must contain only printable Latin-1 [ISO-8859] characters > > I believe that should be ISO-8859-1, right? Yes, good catch. 8859-[2..10] are different character sets for Eastern Europe, Greek, Cyrillic, Arabic etc. 8859-1 is what tEXT and zTXT use. -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 08:52:00 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA26602 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:52:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id IAA18260 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:51:25 -0500 Received: from tiu.arl.mil (tiu.arl.mil [128.63.9.3]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id IAA18255 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:51:22 -0500 Received: from taylor.arl.mil by TIU.ARL.MIL id aa08808; 5 Aug 98 9:46 EDT Message-ID: <35C86252.C825E8AE@alumni.rpi.edu> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 09:46:58 -0400 From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; U; IRIX 5.3 IP20) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Serving PNGs [was PNG Advocacy] References: <1.5.4.32.19980805122442.00f3e480@netgsi.com> <35C85ABD.B64F4EE6@w3.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Chris Lilley wrote: > > Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote: > > > I launched NC4.0.4 by clicking on the link and the result was a download > > of ToluFla00_256.exe (the file contains a valid PNG and nothing else). > > Interesting what two confused applications can come up with when they get > > their heads together. > > The browser did exactly the correct thing when faced with data labelled > application/octet-stream. That MIME type guarantees that the data > consists of zeros and ones, but says nothing about the proportions of > each ;-) Why is renaming it from ".png" to ".exe" exactly the correct thing? Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 09:09:57 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA26741 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:09:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA18338 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:02:10 -0500 Received: from sophia.inria.fr (sophia.inria.fr [138.96.32.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA18333 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:02:06 -0500 Received: from w3.org by sophia.inria.fr (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA03617; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:01:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: sophia.inria.fr: Host clill-pm.inria.fr [138.96.224.138] claimed to be w3.org Message-ID: <35C865EC.EEC9D72B@w3.org> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 16:02:20 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: Serving PNGs [was PNG Advocacy] References: <1.5.4.32.19980805122442.00f3e480@netgsi.com> <35C85ABD.B64F4EE6@w3.org> <35C86252.C825E8AE@alumni.rpi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson wrote: > Why is renaming it from ".png" to ".exe" exactly the correct thing? Oh, I didn't mean that part; I meant saving it to disk. On an OS which uses the filename extension to type the file, it is unclear what extension should be used. I agree that exe is a bad choice. Leaving it as .png would change the MIME type that the *OS* uses to image/png which is a bad thing to do for something labelled as application/octet-stream. I expect that this has happened because many servers send executable files labelled as application/octet-stream. I think there is an unofficial MIME type of application/x-windows-executable or something similar that should probably be used instead for this sort of thing. -- Chris -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 15:45:39 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA00595 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:45:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA02144 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:41:25 -0500 Received: from u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.44.157]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id PAA02139 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:41:20 -0500 Received: (from amc@localhost) by u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.3/8.8.2) id NAA03773; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199808052040.NAA03773@u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: iCCP From: amc@cs.berkeley.edu (Adam M. Costello) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Greg Roelofs says: > > it must contain only printable Latin-1 [ISO-8859] characters > > I believe that should be ISO-8859-1, right? Right. I was following the example of the tEXt spec, which makes the same mistake: Both keyword and text are interpreted according to the ISO 8859-1 (Latin-1) character set [ISO-8859]. "[ISO-8859]" is a citation key, pointing at a bibliography entry: [ISO-8859] International Organization for Standardization, "Information Processing --- 8-bit Single-Byte Coded Graphic Character Sets --- Part 1: Latin Alphabet No. 1", IS 8859-1, 1987. Also see sample files at ftp://ftp.uu.net/graphics/png/documents/iso_8859-1.* If the document being cited defined all the Latin character sets, then [ISO-8859] would be the appropriate key, but the document defines only Latin-1, so the key should be [ISO-8859-1]. The next revision of the PNG 1.1 proposal will fix this in all four places. AMC -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 15:52:16 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA00683 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:52:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA02220 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:51:17 -0500 Received: from u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.44.157]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id PAA02215 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:51:13 -0500 Received: (from amc@localhost) by u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.3/8.8.2) id NAA03904; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199808052050.NAA03904@u33.CS.Berkeley.EDU> To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: mail server down time From: amc@cs.berkeley.edu (Adam M. Costello) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List The host of the PNG mailing lists will be down from 22:00 GMT Fri 7 Aug 1998 until 13:00 GMT Mon 10 Aug 1998. Actually, it might only be down intermittently during that period. Coincidentally, I'll be going offline in a few hours, returning around 7:00 GMT Wed 12 Aug. AMC -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 16:29:55 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA01128 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:29:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id QAA02802 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:28:58 -0500 Received: from cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz (ron.mac.co.nz [202.37.101.18]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id QAA02793 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:28:53 -0500 Received: from turbopress.com (ppp186088.netaccess.co.nz [202.27.186.88]) by cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11879 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:28:29 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199808052128.JAA11879@cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz> Received: from peter by turbopress.com Thu, 06 Aug 98 09:29:42 +1200 From: "Peter Hyde" Organization: South Pacific Information Services Ltd To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:29:42 +13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: PNG Advocacy Priority: normal In-reply-to: <35C844A2.1471AF0A@w3.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Chris wrote: > There were pretty much the last browsers to do so - all the > smaller companies and smaller platforms seemed to have PNG-enabled browsers in > 1995 or 1996. Yep, smaller platforms like ours ;-). > If you are still using plugins, its probably time to consider upgrading > to a later release. There are sometimes very good reasons not to hurry into new browser releases. Size, loading speed, installation footprint/hassle (esp. IE4), need to ensure sites we make are compatible with older common browsers etc. The time and hassle ones are what keep so many users on older versions of course. In truth, native PNG support is the first *good* reason I've seen in the past three years to hurry a browser upgrade... > Content negotiation. Give the PNG to the folks that can handle it, give > GIF to the rest. Fairly simple to arrange, the W3C site has been doing > it for years. The market-leading server, Apache, can do this (amongst > others). Sorry, not that attractive. From my perspective, PNG is supposed to REPLACE GIF, not simply parallel it. I can't say to my clients (the ones footing the bills) "look, let's do an extra 20% work in the graphic area to add PNG support to your site, so all the people who have PNG-ready browsers can see the same images they can already see even if we didn't do the 20% extra." I realise what you are saying is quite correct technically and in terms of desirability. But the reality is that the average Web developer (and client!) is going to say "until the vast majority of visitors can see PNG, we'll use another format. Then we'll switch over completely (probably). The LAST thing we want to do is to use two formats to render the same images at the same time." In other words, it comes back to browser support, and more dark mutterings about why NS and IE have dragged the chain for so long. I dare say I've said enough on this all-too-obvious point so I'll give it a rest now. cheers, peter ================================================== SPIS Ltd, Christchurch, New Zealand * TurboPress Print-to-Web automation http://www.TurboPress.com * Web design, automation and international hosting specialists * Authorised Support Centre for HREF Tools WebHub Find all the above and MORE at http://www.spis.co.nz -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 17:12:22 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA01619 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:12:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA03373 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:07:55 -0500 Received: from sophia.inria.fr (sophia.inria.fr [138.96.32.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA03365 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:07:51 -0500 Received: from w3.org by sophia.inria.fr (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA15684; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:06:56 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: sophia.inria.fr: Host max1-20.nice.iway.fr [194.98.49.84] claimed to be w3.org Message-ID: <35C8D7C1.C6BE4F2B@w3.org> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 00:08:01 +0200 From: Chris Lilley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PNG List Subject: Re: PNG Advocacy References: <199808052128.JAA11879@cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Peter Hyde wrote: > > Chris wrote: > > If you are still using plugins, its probably time to consider upgrading > > to a later release. > > There are sometimes very good reasons not to hurry into new > browser releases. I accept that may users do not upgrade their browser ever. There are still hots being generated by MCOM Mozilla 0.97 for example. > In truth, native PNG support is the first *good* reason I've seen > in the past three years to hurry a browser upgrade... Yes. > > Content negotiation. Give the PNG to the folks that can handle it, give > > GIF to the rest. Fairly simple to arrange, the W3C site has been doing > > it for years. The market-leading server, Apache, can do this (amongst > > others). > > Sorry, not that attractive. From my perspective, PNG is > supposed to REPLACE GIF, not simply parallel it. Yes. But the replacement can be a smooth, user-freindly replacement or it can be a sudden, flag day, my-site-cjhanged-so-upgrade replacement. > I can't say > to my clients (the ones footing the bills) "look, let's do an > extra 20% work in the graphic area to add PNG support to > your site, so all the people who have PNG-ready browsers can > see the same images they can already see even if we didn't > do the 20% extra." Except that they see those graphics with better quality, more cross-platform color fidelity, and they load faster. All without causing problems for those folks with older browsers who continue to see a result, albeit of poorer quality and slower. I think you will find that extra 20% (seems a bit exagerated actually) easy to sell if presented as "we can improve the quality of the site and make it load faster, all without reducing the usability of the site for legacy browsers". > I realise what you are saying is quite correct technically and in > terms of desirability. But the reality is that the average Web > developer (and client!) is going to say "until the vast majority of > visitors can see PNG, we'll use another format. Then we'll > switch over completely (probably). The LAST thing we want to > do is to use two formats to render the same images at the > same time." Given the number of sites that author completely parallel text versions, Shockwave versions, versions for different browsers, etc then I didpute your claim. This is much easier. Generate all the PNGs then have a script run over your server creating a GIF version of all the PNGs. > In other words, it comes back to browser support, and more > dark mutterings about why NS and IE have dragged the chain > for so long. Well, as I said you can have your cake and eat it too, with coneg. -- Chris Lilley, W3C http://www.w3.org/ Graphics and Stylesheets Guy The World Wide Web Consortium http://www.w3.org/people/chris/ INRIA, Projet W3C chris@w3.org 2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93 +33 (0)492 387 987 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 17:16:52 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA01664 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:16:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id RAA03255 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:03:25 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id RAA03249 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:03:16 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id SAA11051; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:02:19 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980805215815.00f35104@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 17:58:15 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: mail server down time Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 01:50 PM 8/5/98 -0700, you wrote: >The host of the PNG mailing lists will be down from 22:00 GMT Fri 7 Aug >1998 until 13:00 GMT Mon 10 Aug 1998. > >Actually, it might only be down intermittently during that period. > >Coincidentally, I'll be going offline in a few hours, returning around >7:00 GMT Wed 12 Aug. Sounds like an evil plot to foil the registration of iCCP. Can we assume that incoming mail during that period will be stored somewhere, or will it be rejected? Vote early and often, folks, then vote again next week, just to be sure. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Wed Aug 5 19:02:23 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA02513 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:02:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id TAA04513 for png-list-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:01:57 -0500 Received: from cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz (ron.mac.co.nz [202.37.101.18]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id TAA04506 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:01:52 -0500 Received: from turbopress.com (ppp186088.netaccess.co.nz [202.27.186.88]) by cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17021 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:01:27 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199808060001.MAA17021@cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz> Received: from peter by turbopress.com Thu, 06 Aug 98 12:02:40 +1200 From: "Peter Hyde" Organization: South Pacific Information Services Ltd To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:02:40 +13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: PNG Advocacy Priority: normal In-reply-to: <35C8D7C1.C6BE4F2B@w3.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Chris wrote: > Except that they see those graphics with better quality, mre cross-platform color > fidelity, and they load faster. Good arguments. You will understand that, to me, the *major* appeal of PNGs are that they are NOT GIFS . But the technical/aesthetic arguments help. > I think you will find that extra 20% (seems a bit exagerated actually) Quite possibly. > Given the number of sites that author completely parallel text versions, > Shockwave versions, versions for different browsers, etc then I didpute > your claim. I guess it's a matter of perspective. I don't dispute that a number of sites go to some trouble to create browser-specific experiences. Personally (and as company policy), we *don't* do that unless in very exceptional cases. We are strongly opposed to the proliferation of browser-specific HTML and our reaction is to try and make all our sites with generic, validated HTML (roughly at the 3.2 level these days, but desirably supporting as far back as, say, Mozilla 1.2). As much as possible, all the smarts go in the site's back end, where browser dependencies are a non-issue. Therefore, for us anyway, the issue of "we duplicate stuff anyway, so the client won't mind paying for this little bit extra" doesn't arise. Anyway, no argument with the general thrust for PNG -- this is just our take on the real-world concerns which people like us face when considering PNG adoption. Anything that can be done do ease our poor benighted lot will have a strong positive effect on PNG uptake. 'best. cheers, peter ================================================== SPIS Ltd, Christchurch, New Zealand * TurboPress Print-to-Web automation http://www.TurboPress.com * Web design, automation and international hosting specialists * Authorised Support Centre for HREF Tools WebHub Find all the above and MORE at http://www.spis.co.nz -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Thu Aug 6 11:22:22 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA09919 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:22:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id LAA11806 for png-list-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:20:48 -0500 Received: from www10.w3.org (www10.w3.org [18.23.0.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id LAA11801 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:20:43 -0500 Received: from xcitemail.com ([209.203.85.1]) by www10.w3.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27094 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:19:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: www10.w3.org: Host [209.203.85.1] claimed to be xcitemail.com Received: from localhost (camera@localhost) by xcitemail.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27178; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:40:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:40:19 -0400 From: Camera Exchange Received: by stripper.xcitemail.com (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:40:19 +0000 To: camera@internetmedia.com Subject: Auction-Camera Equipment Only-For Buyers & Sellers Message-ID: Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Now there is a NEW way to buy and sell your Used camera equipment on the Internet's first CAMERA ONLY online Auction at THE Camera Exchange matches Buyers andSellers of used cameras and equipment. 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VISIT us now at ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:10:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id IAA24722 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:05:01 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id IAA24715 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:04:58 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id JAA19236; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:03:54 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980807125952.009716f8@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 08:59:52 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: PNG 1.1 proposal draft 1.2.1 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I'm in the process of adding sPLT and pCAL to the PNG extensions document. I would like to suggest moving the "oFFs" chunk specification from the extensions document to the main PNG spec. It has been supported all along in libpng (sCAL and gIF* haven't, so they should remain in the extensions document) --- but, unfortunately, I just noticed that libpng returns unsigned 32-bit numbers for x_offset and y_offset, which is incorrect. I will fix that in the next libpng release. If no one has noticed that, maybe it's an argument not to move oFFs after all.... If we do move oFFs, there needs to be a statement in the PNG spec about the format and range of 4-byte signed numbers. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Aug 7 09:31:03 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA21340 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:31:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id JAA26025 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:30:18 -0500 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id JAA26020 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:30:13 -0500 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA09592 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:29:09 -0400 (EDT) To: PNG List Subject: Re: PNG 1.1 proposal draft 1.2.1 In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 07 Aug 1998 08:59:52 -0400 <1.5.4.32.19980807125952.009716f8@netgsi.com> Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:29:09 -0400 Message-ID: <9590.902500149@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson writes: > I would like to suggest moving the "oFFs" chunk specification > from the extensions document to the main PNG spec. Why? > I will fix that in the next libpng release. If no one has > noticed that, maybe it's an argument not to move oFFs after > all.... Lack of widespread usage is certainly a reason not to make it part of the core spec. regards, tom lane -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Aug 7 11:01:21 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA22435 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:01:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id KAA27075 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:59:06 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id KAA27070 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:59:01 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id LAA26124; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:57:57 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980807155355.00f39de8@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 11:53:55 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: PNG 1.1 proposal draft 1.2.1 Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 10:29 AM 8/7/98 -0400, you wrote: >Glenn Randers-Pehrson writes: >> I would like to suggest moving the "oFFs" chunk specification >> from the extensions document to the main PNG spec. > >Why? When I wrote that sentence, I thought oFFs had been supported for a couple of years, successfully. I perceived the extensions document as a place where chunks could cool off for a year or two and then be moved up if they turned out to be widely supported. Then I went to check the implementation in libpng and discovered that it hasn't really been supported properly after all, and wrote: > >> I will fix that in the next libpng release. If no one has >> noticed that, maybe it's an argument not to move oFFs after >> all.... > >Lack of widespread usage is certainly a reason not to make it >part of the core spec. I can't really tell whether it's being used or not, but the fact that the error was never reported suggests that it isn't being used much. However, people who are converting GIFs would not be likely to notice the error, because the offsets in GIF89a are unsigned 16-bit ints. But in view of the fact that the support in libpng has been erroneous, I withdraw the suggestion. ARL viewpng (which isn't widely used, to my knowledge) has supported oFFs for quite a while, interpreting the fields as 4-byte signed longs on the SGI, in which negative numbers are expressed in two's complement form (which is consistent with the PNG spec, section 2.1). Negative numbers are much more prevalent in MNG, so MNG decoders will have to pay attention to the range and format of negative numbers. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Fri Aug 7 14:43:10 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA24940 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:43:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id OAA29935 for png-list-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:40:53 -0500 Received: from www10.w3.org (www10.w3.org [18.23.0.20]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id OAA29930 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:40:49 -0500 From: isd269@aol.com Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu (ds1.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.6]) by www10.w3.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA16438 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:39:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from student.umbc.edu ([130.85.157.77]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21315; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Online Classroom Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN charset=US-ASCII Apparently-To: Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List REGISTER NOW! 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Information Contact UMBC Professional Programs at 410-455-2797 Email: connect@umbc.edu Website: http//www.umbc.edu/continuing-education -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Aug 8 13:51:19 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA08949 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:51:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id NAA11806 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:50:53 -0500 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (sss.pgh.pa.us [206.210.65.6]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id NAA11801 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:50:48 -0500 Received: from sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.sss.pgh.pa.us (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA01696 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 14:49:39 -0400 (EDT) To: PNG List Subject: extensions vs core spec (was Re: PNG 1.1 proposal draft 1.2.1) In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 07 Aug 1998 11:53:55 -0400 <1.5.4.32.19980807155355.00f39de8@netgsi.com> Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 14:49:39 -0400 Message-ID: <1694.902602179@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List Glenn Randers-Pehrson writes: > I perceived the extensions document as a place where chunks could cool > off for a year or two and then be moved up if they turned out to be > widely supported. I don't really think that the extensions document should be considered a farm team for chunks that might make the majors next year ;-). The point of it was to (a) make the core spec smaller, and (b) provide a place to define less-widely-used chunks in a document that could be revised more often and with less pain than the core spec. The fact that we haven't actually bothered to revise the extensions doc even once since the core came out is evidence of burnout ... but it's not a reason to abandon the distinction. Especially not when we are proceeding down the path to ISO standardization of the core spec. Once that happens we may as well assume the core is graven on stone tablets; we'll need an extensions doc that we can revise without touching the core or giving the impression that we might shortly want to revise the core. regards, tom lane -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Aug 8 15:08:10 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA09648 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:08:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA12142 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:07:19 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id PAA12136 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:07:15 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id QAA16176; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 16:06:06 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980808200203.0096ef38@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 16:02:03 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: ISO 8859-1 [was Re: iCCP] Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 03:35 PM 8/5/98 +0200, you wrote: >Greg Roelofs wrote: >> >> > it must contain only printable Latin-1 [ISO-8859] characters >> >> I believe that should be ISO-8859-1, right? > >Yes, good catch. 8859-[2..10] are different character sets for Eastern >Europe, Greek, Cyrillic, Arabic etc. 8859-1 is what tEXT and zTXT use. Also, the reference should be updated to reflect the fact that a new version of ISO 8859-1 was released in April 1998. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Aug 8 15:09:59 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA09673 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:09:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA12164 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:10:19 -0500 Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with SMTP id PAA12159 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:10:16 -0500 Received: (qmail 15048 invoked from network); 8 Aug 1998 20:09:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 8 Aug 1998 20:09:29 -0000 Received: from bolt.sonic.net (roelofs@bolt [208.201.224.36]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA24970; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:09:08 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: (from roelofs@localhost) by bolt.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id NAA20032; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:08:09 -0700 Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:08:09 -0700 Message-Id: <199808082008.NAA20032@bolt.sonic.net> From: Greg Roelofs To: png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: sRGB rendering intent; ICC LCDs? Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List I thought Adam's gamma-fix document asked about the default sRGB rendering intent, but his machine is down and I don't have a local copy of the 1.2.1 version (or whatever is most recent). In any case, someone, somewhere, asked about it and suggested that "perceptual" might be the most appropriate; Annex E of the ICC profile spec says that "relative colorimetric" is the ICC default. That makes sense to me (insofar as I now semi-understand the four possibilities), so I suggest we either make the same recommendation or else simply mention that of the ICC. (Note that sRGB refers to ICC for the definition of the four intents.) Also, Chris Lilley once said that LCDs' transfer functions are "sigmoid"; what does that mean? If it's S-shaped, is it flat in the middle (sort of like a scaled tangent curve) or steep in the middle (like an integral)? Do ICC profiles cover this case, either explicitly (couldn't find any mention) or implicitly? As far as sRGB support goes, will Microsoft's OS support include specific support for LCDs? Apple, Sun, NEC and Sony all make (or at least used to make) laptops; does their membership in ICC imply anything in this regard? Man, this has been some tough writing... Greg -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu From owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Sat Aug 8 16:02:02 1998 Received: from dworkin.wustl.edu (dworkin.wustl.edu [128.252.169.2]) by swrinde.nde.swri.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA10184 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 16:02:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) id PAA12410 for png-list-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:57:14 -0500 Received: from grok.netgsi.com (grok.netgsi.com [192.55.203.19]) by dworkin.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6.yuck) with ESMTP id PAA12404 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:57:10 -0500 Received: by NetGSI.com (8.8.7/-A/UX-AMR-1.0) id QAA17773; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 16:56:00 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980808205157.00f3f550@netgsi.com> X-Sender: glennrp@netgsi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 16:51:57 -0400 To: PNG List From: Glenn Randers-Pehrson Subject: Re: sRGB rendering intent; ICC LCDs? Sender: owner-png-list@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG List At 01:08 PM 8/8/98 -0700, you wrote: >I thought Adam's gamma-fix document asked about the default sRGB >rendering intent, but his machine is down and I don't have a local >copy of the 1.2.1 version (or whatever is most recent). I think it's the latest. I haven't been able to get to his machine for a couple of days; he must have powered it down before he left. > In any case, >someone, somewhere, asked about it and suggested that "perceptual" >might be the most appropriate; Annex E of the ICC profile spec says >that "relative colorimetric" is the ICC default. That makes sense >to me (insofar as I now semi-understand the four possibilities), so I >suggest we either make the same recommendation or else simply mention >that of the ICC. (Note that sRGB refers to ICC for the definition >of the four intents.) I agree that we should quote the ICC recommendation rather than making a different one. > >Also, Chris Lilley once said that LCDs' transfer functions are "sigmoid"; >what does that mean? If it's S-shaped, is it flat in the middle (sort >of like a scaled tangent curve) or steep in the middle (like an integral)? >Do ICC profiles cover this case, either explicitly (couldn't find any >mention) or implicitly? The only "TRC" (Tone Reproduction Curve) types they accommodate are linear, simple gamma, and tabular, as of ICCP version 3.4. So if you want a sigmoidal TRC you have to write it in tabular form. Glenn -- Send the message body "help" to png-list-request@dworkin.wustl.edu